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Robert Hanson
Posted: Feb 10, 2010 10:29 PM
What do you think of this.....
Hey everybody, what do think of this for a starter rig.
-16'x8' trailer
-Graco E-20 or H-25
-Shore power
-Gas compressor
-Heated/Air-conditioned, Insulated, Thermostatically controlled proportioner room
-Seperate, unheated/vented compartment for gas generator
-Supplier = BASF 'Walltite' CC Foam

Any thoughts very much appreciated, there is a lot of conflicting info out there, and along with every salesman telling you something different, its' hard to figure out what to do. So what do you all think ?
Robert Hanson
Posted: Feb 10, 2010 10:38 PM
sorry, thats supposed to be gas compressor, not generator
Robert Hanson
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 01:14 AM
couple mistakes there, gotta fix em, here goes -

-16'x8' trailer
-Graco E-30 or H-25
-Shore power
-Electric compressor
-Heated/Air-conditioned, Insulated, Thermostatically controlled proportioner room
-Supplier = BASF 'Walltite' CC Foam

thats the configuration so far, any body got any input ?
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 07:17 AM
You forgot the training wheels!
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 08:57 AM
Just say no to shore power!
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 12:36 PM
just say yes to a few more certified SPF suppliers in Canada so we can have some real competition.

and to be fair, just say yes to Walltite keeping certification fees down to reasonable levels

edited to add:

gas compressors and generators are excellent sources of heat in the winter time...run a gas motor in the trailer and your chemical will be toasty warm. consider a roll out unit so that you can have it outside of the trailer in the summer, and inside in the winter. Or a heat exchanger...or...or...
Robert Hanson
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 02:48 PM
thanks for the input flin flon, believe it or not I was born in Flin Flon, lived in Denare Beach for 5 or 6 years. My old man ran his own contracting business there back then (Larry 'Hank' Hanson). What is your opinion on suppliers, anything I should watch out for ?
Posted: Feb 14, 2010 05:58 AM
please explain "certified spf suppliers"..
who regulates the cerification,,how do the suppliers gain certification..you know the basic questions...
i am excited to hear a tract that holds the supply side to some level of credibility...

as well explain the waltite cert program and its associated fees so us down here in the lower 48 can get a feel for what is comeing..
(cause if they can get more $$ out of us they sure as heck will)
jeff henderson
Posted: Feb 14, 2010 12:05 PM

Any SPF job in Canada that falls under the resiential building code has to meet two standards...i.e. CAN/ULC S705.1- 01 with August 2004 Amendment – Standard for Thermal Insulation – Spray Applied Rigid Polyurethane Foam, Medium Density – Material – Specification ...essentially the code standards are that the foam meet specifications, typically certified by independant testing conducted by the CCMC - Canadian Construction Material Centre - and assigned a CCMC control number that lets every building inspector or code official in the country know that the foam is up to code, the installer be trained on foam aplication standards, safety, testing procedures for quality control, etc, and that the foam manufacturer and installer be audited by a third party...in the case of Walltite, the engineering firm Morrison Hirschfield, in Demilecs case, CUFCA through the Building Professional Consortium, Lapolla has Exova (recently press released on this site)...not sure who Enerthane uses.

The manfucturer sends foam samples to the CCMC, the CCMC releases a report certifying them for use in Canada, installers take training course and pass a test, third party firm audits the installer through in-field visits - including watching them spray, inspecting safety gear in trucks, inspecting records of previous jobs..installer is supposed to track each job with daily work site logs, including tracking each job to a specific batch and lot number, RH, temp, etc...manufacturer must also offer a warranty program - if the installer screws up the install, they must make it good, or the homeowner can tap the warranty program and the manufacturer will send another crew out to make the job right.

Walltite offers courses, $200 fee to attend, and write the test. This allows you to buy their foam. Must pay the $200 annually. This gets you a lovely laminated photo i.d. card saying you are allowed to spray. Then you must contact the engineering firm for the infield audit. The junior-engineer of the firm comes out, on your dime, and signs off on your real-world spraying ability. In my case I am 1200 km from the firm, so I would have had to either pay them to fly out to me, put them in a hotel room, and pay the $150/hr charge for their time, or drive to Calgary, find a fake job to spray, or volunteer for some charity, and have them pop out to watch me...either way, significant money spent. Did I mention the $500 audit fee?

If I don't send in my job site logs to Walltite, I eventually get a nasty letter from their office informing me that I have been suspended from the Quality Control Program and can no longer purchase foam. I then scramble around and get them the paperwork, reinstate myself and go back to work.

If you want to join CUFCA, sign over a $2100 course fee cheque, fly to Waterloo, Ontario, take the course, get audited right there by spraying a fake wall, and walk out as a newly minted certified applicator. Provided of course that you pay the annual business registration fee of (going from memory here so feel free anyone to correct my numbers) $400, your annual registration fee for each certified installer, the mandatory 10 cents per kilo of chemical used for a marketing fund, the annual gun certifcation fee of $200, the need to buy the mandatory testing equipment totalling $1,200 dollars...probably missed something there but you get the point I'm sure...death by a thousand cuts.

I was lookng at $4,000 to start with CUFCA - money I decided to keep in my pocket - although I did take their 2100 course...just decided to opt out after the bill kept getting higher and higher.

Now I am spending two sprayers to Toronto to take the 5-day lapolla course. $1,000 each to get certified, not sure yet on the annual registration fees. Add in flights, meals etc, and it will cost me about $3,000 this year for the right to buy Lapollas foam.

My cost of one set of walltite delivered to me in Flin Flon is $3,300 CDN. Lapolla about $3,200, Demilecs Polar Foam about $3,500 and Enerthane about $3,500. AS far as I know these are the only 2lb CCMC tested, thus 'certified' foams, in Canada.

Figure 4000bf per set and your board foot cost becomes very high roughly 90 cents/bf....code in Flin Flon for a wall is R28, Lapolla is rated at R6.3/inch, so a wall sprayed to code costs me $4/sq ft...plus enough money to pay some staff, and some equipemnt costs would be nice...the customer ends up with a large number at the end.

I am fairly confident that a set of 'certified Canadian foam' from BASF or Lapolla is marked up significantly from a chemically identical set down in the US.

So... Code standards for foam manufacturing and installing are spelled out in excruciating detail....manufacturers must meet the standards....third-party auditors endure that the installers and manufacturers adhere to the rules and the CCMC,a branch of the Federal government, adminsters the testing of the foam to prove/disprove that it meets the required standard. Building inspectors can then walk into a jobsite and see colour coded-foam (by code, each certified foam is colour-coded by manufacturer for ease of reference), read the CCMC label on the barrel of chemical, and walk out satisfied.

As an example, I recently did one job for the city, during the job the inspector came out and took photos of the drums to show the labels, and the photos of the applied foam so the architect could verify that I was using certified foam, as specified in the blueprints.

Rumour has it that sneaky people might buy one set of CCMC labelled drums, then keep refilling them with cheap uncertified foam purchased on the sly...hence the colour coding....

that's all from memory, so if I missed a couple of points, I'm willing to be corrected or edited.
Posted: Feb 14, 2010 11:04 PM
CUFCA, they sound like a bunch of hosers, eh!

Congrats on you first Gold on Canadian soil.
Robert Hanson
Posted: Feb 15, 2010 09:56 AM
Thanks for the information gotfoam, would have took me a while to get all that figured out
Posted: Feb 16, 2010 11:23 PM
I would say if you use a gas gen then mount the sucker instead of a roller. PITA to move when you need. Trying to run it in the winter inside is also dangerous due to the fumes. In the summer just leave the doors open and maybe run a fan airflow if needed. I mounted my roller unit since diesel was too much more for us to get while we are starting and it kept having issues like coming loose from bouncing in the back of the trailer allowing the tires to compress or finally braking the brace on the front because we had to tighten the straps so hard to deal with the tires giving on bumps.

Rest of the rig sounds good for a starter though and you can still run a diesel to warm things up on your way to the site with a removable panel and small fan between the partition. Remember it is trailer and you want as much MOUNTED and all items able to be tied down, strapped in or contained as much as possible!

As for the praportioner you may want to pass on the E-20. A good machine from what many say here but I wish I had gone that route so I could just buy some hose and a spare gun to do coatings if needed to help boost our offerings. Saves having to get a new proportioner if you get interested in polyureas later.
Layton Warren
Posted: Feb 23, 2010 09:15 AM
I agree with Spray Foam Goddess to stay away from shore power, it opens you up to liability unless you area certified electrician and how confident are you (I am not familiar with the size of panels in your area) that the home owners panel will handle the 100 amp breaker for the E30. YOu do not mention the manufacturer of the trailer or the axel weight capacity. If you are carrying 1 set of foam, reactor, hose, transfer pumps, breathable air pump, air compressor it all adds up to around 2500-2800 pounds and you don't want to be on the edge of overloaded.
Great post on the certified foam topic.
Terry Adams
Posted: Feb 23, 2010 09:24 PM
If you can't plug into a power panel with a set of breakers, just wait till you take your gun apart. In other words you're in the wrong business if you can't do electrical, hydraulics, mechnical, etc etc etc.

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