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Brian Bothun Posted: Mar 02, 2011 11:44 PM	Almighty Injection Foam Who's doing it and who's not. The ones who are what problems have arose and what brand are you "pumpin" The one's who aren't what is your reasoning. Lotta interest in these parts and wouldn't mind the extra work..
steven argus Posted: Mar 03, 2011 09:31 AM	We also get alot of calls to inject foam into existing buildings. We do not do it on a regular basis. And if we do, it's strickly on a T and M basis. (email me if you want prices) We also have the customer do as much as the prep as possible to save them money. We use regular old .5# foam. (don't want to order a whole set of pour foam) Turn the temps down a bit. Drill holes, pull the trigger for maybe 4 - 5 seconds and pray. We do not offer any guarantees that the foam will cover 100% and that the walls will not blow out. As I see it, the only way to do this effectively is to use a heat camera on the oppisite side of the wall. We did it once and it worked great. As for the shaving cream foam, It looks like a sweet set up. Just don't want to buy a whole new rig, 2nd crew, 2nd truck, etc.
John Shockney Posted: Mar 03, 2011 11:05 AM	Guiness is right that is the same way we do it. We use the same .5# foam that we spray everyday just turn the heat down to slow down the reaction, we use a pour adapter for the P-II gun and 6inches of ¼ inch tubing to direct the foam. Then pull the trigger for a 4-5 count. We tell the customer that there is no way of knowing if we completely fill all the cavities (unless you have an ir camera) and there is no way to know how well the plaster is attached so we don’t guarantee that we won’t crack plaster or have foam coming out onside the house. We get the home owner to remove siding and drill the holes (or to get a handyman/siding contractor) and then we will inject our foam based on how much we use on a per pump stroke basis. Like G said time and material is the only way to figure it. I haven’t been able to justify the cost of the shaving cream foam system just not enough call for it and the cellulose guys are out there blowing walls too Airpro
Posted: Mar 03, 2011 11:51 AM	g & a is there any questimate of yeild with the cold pour of oc foams??? the pour foam equip is way simple,, and not to spendy...
John Shockney Posted: Mar 03, 2011 12:18 PM	dude I figure 4 board feet of foam per square foot so I’m high and don’t take out for windows and doors then if I give them a bill for less at the end they are happier. also we recomend a one inch hole but can use a 1/2 inch hole, but watch out when you over fill one foam comes out the hole at 50mph Airpro
steven argus Posted: Mar 03, 2011 01:41 PM	don't care, T $ M.
Daniel X Posted: Mar 03, 2011 08:31 PM	I guess you guys don't want to hear that you're not creating true 1/2lb foam if your temps are too cold... Have any of you done density tests on your work before?
Brian Bothun Posted: Mar 03, 2011 10:36 PM	I was referring to the shaving cream schtuff.. I dont't think I have the balls to inject a wall with half pound.. Talked to a few of the veteran lads and checked out a rig...I priced out to build my own rig after pricing out one from that company that pops up all over when injection is mentioned.. More then 10k less keeping it under 10k (have a tall 16' vfront enclosed layin around) If it wasnt for the high priced pump system i'm getting it would be cheap as a couple sets of foam.. (also have a generator and gas presser layin round) This arctic tundra we get 5 months outta the year should be easy to sell the barbasol outta it
quentin Posted: Mar 03, 2011 11:22 PM	I looked at that and after checking around some like it and do it but there is an issue with it shrinking as it is a water and resin. The big one in this state actually did a job for one of the guys who works with me before we met. as he put it, the claim it shrinks 3% they are required to say is BS as he had walls crack they stated they were not responsible for and the shrinking is closer to 10% where you can feel exactly how bad it is with the cold spots at the top, bottom and around the studs. So how do you fix the shrinking, you can't really unless you pull the wall and if you are going to do that then youo might was well spray it anyways.
Bryan Kwater Posted: Mar 04, 2011 07:00 AM	There is a big demand for injection foam in my area, but after seeing the problems, we are not gonna mess with it. There is a big difference in shrinkage between the brands. I have seen quite a few remodel projects that show just how much the foam shrinks. It is not uncommon to see a 16" wide stud cavity with 1" gaps at the sides and 6" at the top and bottom. Now who knows what caused this (wrong mixture, cold temps, etc.) but most general contractors swear off the stuff after seeing it. And all homeowners know is that it's foam. I haven't seen an opened up wall yet like this, but it is common practice around me for the contractors to inject foam in walls that already have fiberglass insulation. I would love to see what they look like years later.
steven argus Posted: Mar 04, 2011 07:12 AM	dl123, can you please explain? How can temp change desity? Ever do a cup sample at room temp? We don't turn the heat compleatly off. We are spraying in the summer, probably 80 degrees outside. Preheat and hose is probably no less than 100 - 105 degrees. Excellent cell structure, foam looks great.
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 09:24 AM	ok,,now that it is out there,,,here we go... lets see,,you take lots of water,,mix in the powder,,,take some more water,,mix in the catalyst,,and pump her into the walls,,, burma shave,,literally,,lol,,, ok,,but dont we all beal about moisture in walls in all the other topics on this here forum??? and dont mold only need like 20% to get growin and then only somewhere around 10% to live... that being said,,(i dont do the mold scare thing) so i put up some fabric between the posts of our postframed shop...pumped in the schtuff,,pumped her full to the point of slightly bulging,,(kinda like gorgeous george in that there speedo)and as the bun dried down,,as eluded in previous posts,,we saw anywhere from 1/4 to 1" shrinkage around the entire bun periphery,,, the bun itself maintained its integrity and looked like a pretty nice piece of insulation media... it is what it is,,,and i think you need to educate the consumer well as to its limitations...they thermal image after,,they will see gaps about the periphery,,they will see areas of no fill,,but they will probably have better insulation than they had when they started...it is what it is,, we need a way to inject the polyurethane systems with confidence for a side to side seamless system... (ps,,couldnt get rid of the equipment fast enough,,to me this is more than makin $$)
steven argus Posted: Mar 04, 2011 10:08 AM	I'm sure George would appreciate it if you did not mention "shrinkage" when talking about his speedo. It's cold up in NH. Anyone see that Sienfeld eppisode? You actually bought the equipment, tried it and sold it? I guess the pricing on the gear ain't that bad, according to Brian B. (He sent me an email, keeping prices off this forum) The only way to guarantee 100% coverage is with the IR camera. Even with newspaper. George is gonna give me a great deal on one at his show.
John Shockney Posted: Mar 04, 2011 10:47 AM	dude You may remember that I tried and was doing some “wall forming” a few years back by putting up 2mil plastic then covering it with plastic lattice and injecting open cell foam into the cavity, this allows you to see how the foam would expand and fill a blind cavity. That is how I practiced before I ever did my first injection job. Now we will only do jobs were there is no insulation in the wall and we don’t guarantee to get 100% of the wall or not to crack plaster (I don’t have x-ray vision or an IR camera) but still if you do get 80-90% coverage that’s a lot better than what they started with. Even though we do some injection jobs there isn’t enough of them to spend $10,000 on a shaving cream system. In regards to the lower temp and density issue; when you are running the foam through a piece of tubing it mixes very well before flowing into the wall cavity and because it is a closed box that holds the heat in the foam expands very well but may have a slightly higher density. Remember that when you are spraying foam the heat is to lower the viscosity and make it spray better and that you lose heat to the air you are spraying through and the exposed side of the wall. So really the 20-30deg lower heat setting doesn’t affect the foam that much. Airpro
steven argus Posted: Mar 04, 2011 11:31 AM	AP, I agree, the temps main purpose is to change viscosity. And to add, we use a small mixing chamber when doing this for better mixing. And having a slightly higher density is not a bad thing for the customer, just a bad thing for our yeild. In addition to using the pour adapt. w/ tube, we use a 4 - 6 inch tube and keep a handful on hand because they clog up very quick. We are not injecting foam for a week straight, usally a day job. Also, for us to do this, the customer really does have to beg us. And we will only do it if we are not busy. T $ M is the only way. We are a for profit business. (or a least try to be.)
John Shockney Posted: Mar 04, 2011 12:26 PM	guiness I also use the pour adapter with a 4-6inch piece of tubing when “spraying” down onto ceilings because you can just flow the froth out onto the ceiling and get every corner with little to no spray mist in the air and if you can’t reach a spot just take the tube off and you can spray 5-10 feet away. Sometimes I put the pour adapter on instead of the “jet” tip to spray the underside of roofs in places that I can’t reach. Its not pretty but it works!! If you are going to use the pour adapter cut a dozen or so 4-6x1/4 inch tubes before you start and change them before they plug up or you could get a crossover in your gun, I carry them in a cheap cloth nail apron that I can through away if I get too much foam on it. I agree that this isn’t a big money maker spraying new houses or pole barns is a lot faster and easier but if we are slow we will do them some money is always better than no money comming in. Airpro
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 02:39 PM	ap,,i use the confusion gun,, could you email me a pix of the analprobler(southpark reference,,lol) gun with the pour attachment and the tube assembly,,, i have a similar thingy i think for the confusion but i would like to see what you are doing,,, spanx
Daniel X Posted: Mar 05, 2011 12:13 AM	Temperature definitely affects density, as does your pressure and thickness of your initial lift... (I'm talking mostly about 2lb. but the same science applies to 1/2lb.) I don't know what a "cup test" is, I use a graduated cylinder and a little digital scale. Density = mass/volume. Go ahead and try it one day, you'll be amazed and how much of a difference in yield you will get from 5 degrees of temperature change. Edit: also, sorry to burst the bubble here, but temperatures affect more than just viscosity to make "it spray better"... the actual reaction requires heat...
John Shockney Posted: Mar 05, 2011 01:04 PM	di123 A “cup test” is taking one part A and one part B at room temp and mixing them with a power in a quart cup then checking the density this is done as quality control in the foam manufactures test lab. I don’t see how a graduated cylinder would give you an accurate volume measurement of a solid they are only accurate when measuring liquids, the best way to get an accurate sample would be to cut it an exact size like 2x2x2inches= 8cubic inches then weigh it. Ok, I wanted to keep the discussion simple (KISS) about foam injection and not get into the chemistry or density of spray foam. Foam is a plastic and most plastics or either thermo set or thermo formed and spray foam falls into the thermo set family of plastics. Meaning like a lot of catalyzed resins heat is needed or generated in order to cure the plastic if you have ever worked with fiberglass or “bondo” and left mixed resin in a container you may have noticed how hot it gets. So the heat that we add to spray foam not only reduces the viscosity improving the spray-ability and mixing, but heat also speeds the chemical reaction and shortens the curing time the same as using heat lamps to get fiberglass resin to setup faster. And yes the added heat does also affect foam density as it is the hot expanding gas that forms the bubbles inside the foam, the more heat the more it expands. But when doing foam injection you don’t need a lot of added heat for two reasons; 1st you want to slow down the reaction letting the foam flow to the bottom of the cavity before expanding and getting hard, 2nd you are pumping foam into a partly insulated box where the exothermic reaction can generate all the heat needed to cure the foam. Now you could special order a slow-rise foam that has less catalyst to slow down the reaction but we don’t do enough injection work to use it up before the shelf life expires and it costs more, so lowering temps works for us. As a side note the spray foam industry cold have added thinners (VOCs) to foam to make it spray at colder temp like paints and I think the two part caned foam does have some thinners in it. But by heating the chemicals it solves these problems with no VOCs. Also there is a big push by the government to get rid of all VOCs and the big paint and coating suppliers are pushing the painting contractors to buy Reactors to spray polyuria and foam so we may soon see more competition from that industry. Airpro dude I’ll try to get some pics up but its raining here and my sat internet is slow today I’ll pose a link as soon as I can get them up
Daniel X Posted: Mar 05, 2011 03:26 PM	The graduated cylinder is filled with water and you measure the displacement to get the volume of the sample. I understand that in the US you don't have to have any training or certification in order to spray foam, but up in Canada we do... A cup test doesn't prove anything... you need to SPRAY at a certain pressure and temp to see what the REAL WORLD DENSITY of your foam is. Adding a cup of iso to a cup of resin and agitating it isn't the same as atomizing the materials...
John Shockney Posted: Mar 05, 2011 05:12 PM	di123 As I said the cup test is used by manufactures in quality control under lab conditions actual density of spray foam will vary depending on conditions at the time it is sprayed. But this is how all manufactures rate their foam density most 2# foams will test at 1.8 pound per cuft or lower when actually sprayed. I have measured volume with the water displacement method but I thought we were talking about open cell foam and I don’t see how you could use that method with a sample of open cell foam as the air spaces would fill with water. And yes I can see the advantages of government required training and certification; higher material costs, fewer small contractors, only large spray foam contractors entering the market, higher cost to the consumer, no real protection to the consumer, less innovation in the market, and no service to some small towns or rural arias. NOT Also there is no such thing atomizing since you never brake the liquid down into atoms. Airpro
Daniel X Posted: Mar 05, 2011 09:35 PM	My mistake, I forgot you spray 1/2lb. crap only... You know what I mean by atomizing even thought you're correct. You're all wrong about the certification thing though, it's not like a union... Just fewer hacks and scabs.
Brian Bothun Posted: Mar 05, 2011 10:26 PM	Better idea to both of you, take your b@tch fest to your own thread. I started this to learn more about injection and how are you furthering this.
John Shockney Posted: Mar 06, 2011 12:37 AM	Sorry Brian I started talking on this thread to help with an alternative to the shaving cream foam and let myself be distracted by someone north of the border that only sprays closed cell and has never done foam injection. Again sorry Airpro
Posted: May 15, 2011 03:12 AM	sat on this for a while,,, sit on it no more,,, so when i started sprayin polyurethane foam some years back chillrin,,,the number 1 question back then was,,does this stuff,,shrink,,,dissintigrate,,and fall apart like that "old foam stuff they used" back then???and i would have to spend about an hour tellin em about good concept,,bad chemistry,,bla bla bla,,that the foam we spray is a polyurethane and that this was a ureaformldehyde formulation,,,bla bla bla,,, and do you know any uf injection foamers whoms reputation wasnt beatinto the ground over that crap??? now onto our current formulation... so,,,as a spray foam insulator,,,we like our product cause it keeps MOISTURE OUT OF WALLS and many of you use this in our marketing to impress this moisture control gross moisture intrusion, moisture vapor intrusion, and the subsequent potential for organic organsim growth within the wall cavity,,,thats MOLD for those of you from rio linda...lets see now,, so we take 50 gallon of water,,pour 4 bags of powder in and mix up real good to make a shaving cream,,,and put it with,,,another batch of,,you got it more water with the "catalyst" package..and you pump the water into the wall,,, sweet,,,18% moisture content to get her growin baby and as little as 8% to maintain it growth,,which is present in most timbers and paperbackings,,, so,,,as a polyurthane foamer you sell side to side seamless,,,no moisture,,,no gaps,,no shrinkage,,ever(are any of you thermal imaging these places after you have injected them and they dryed down say three or 4 months later??please let us know what the images show) when the walls come off 5 years or 10 years from now and the shaving cream hits the fan just where will you be then,,,ufi killed many a business,,, and i wonder when my states attorney general will step in and question some of the blatant false claims by the injection folks in their media blitz advertizing...highest rvalue of any insulation out there indeed,,,lol,,amongst others,,, ps,,,id fill my walls with the shredded paper schtuff for a quarter the price,,,at least if it settles from the top you can fill it later,,with this stuff when it drys and shrinks-about-its-periphery(oh crap did he just say that??he said he wouldnt)your hosed at remediation of the gaps short of removin the wallboard,,,and did i say that the paper crap has better thermal properties as well,,,no i dont install paper... so,,,when in rome,,,do like the roman's,, but watch out when the coloseum comes tumblein down,,,thems some big azz'd columns up there,,,